An alternative Saturday post

I decided today to post the comments from the last post. I have heard that the comment link is not behaving, and that not everyone can access it, so I decided to post the comments here so everyone can see. They are quite interesting, and long enough to be multiple posts. (For those of you have commented, I hope you don't mind.) I don't want to drop this yet, so I am going to keep pushing it. :)

"Well, Julia, I'm sure you already know that I am so utterly far removed from anyone's most remote definition or idea or thought of agrarianism that my commenting on this particular post seems laughable! Not to mention the fact that I haven't read the book (but I've heard of it, does that count?)

But, hey, you asked for comments!

I'm unlikely to ever be involved in this myself, though of course I can see its value. What can I say? I was raised in a certain culture, and have no desire or inclination to leave it. While I enjoy to a certain extent and at certain times the great outdoors, I guess in my "real life" I honestly prefer to mostly keep it at bay. Please don't hate me!! Just kidding, I know you'd never. :)

I mean, for example, we have a travel trailer, but we don't actually go camping in the purest sense of the word. No, we go RVing! Different concept altogether. And we often stay in concrete campgrounds and bring our laptop along, and have a perfectly smashing time doing it! (Of course, to be fair and not make us sound more urban than we are, other times we stay in more rustic campgrounds.)

I hope you or any one else will feel free to refute anything I've said! Of course, everything is just my personal opinion, I'm not against the ideals of agrarianism, I just wouldn't enjoy the lifestyle myself. And I am perfectly willing to admit that I probably don't even have an accurate picture of what it actually is that I've rejected. So feel free to educate me! (Actually, "rejected" is too strong a word. "Neglected" or "ignored" is probably closer to the mark.)"

March 11, 2008 6:47 PM

Jules said...

"Well that is a very interesting thing you have said there. Of course I would never even close to...(as you said) "hate" you in the slightest...:) I actually don't believe that everyone is called to this lifestyle, in the literal sense of the word, at all. This is why it is all so fascinating to me, there is such a wide range and variety of peoples lifestyle choices. And my goal is to understand that.
You said before: "I'm not against the ideals of agrarianism, I just wouldn't enjoy the lifestyle myself."
Well that is the beauty of Agrarianism, you don't have to actually LIVE the farming way, or anything like that. The real core of an Agrarian mindset is its values. No, you don't have to have a farm or even a garden to believe in agrarianism, in fact I believe many of the essays written in that book are written by urban-dwellers, but merely believe in the restoration of families and communities, that have become very separated in this modern day and age. That is really the real reason for any of this. People see Agrarianism (in its complete picture with values as its core) as the way to pull their families back together and the perfect opportunity for restoring community.
Another main idea of Agrarianism is that of restoration. Anyone can go and see all the economical and natural problems in the mainstream right now. I mean look at the disappearing bees, or at the horrible effects of the big companies getting a hold of our food and sustainability: genetic modification, hormones and antibiotics pumped into the meat, and many other problems with the big industrialization, and of mass-production our food sources.

Compare a modern meat plant, run by some rich businessmen, who only cares about the big bucks, in contrast to a family farm that gives nutritional, safety-assured, natural meat. The family is trying to support itself by working at home together. If any person could choose which one to get their meat from, what would it be? See, that is another huge aspect of Agrarianism,
"~In the community-supported agriculture group that links local food buyers and food growers into a partnership, one that sustains farmers, economically, promotes ecologically sound farming practices, and gives city dwellers a known source of wholesome food.

For those agrarians who are called to a city or more suburban lifestyle, finding and supporting that kind of local community is essential to their beliefs and practices, and the welfare of humanity. Here is a very interesting thing I found, it is like "Store Wars" except with the Matrix. (Mark would really enjoy it I think :)- www.themeatrix.com

That supporting of local and family farms and food sources and the values behind Agrarianism is really what I am getting at here. Like I said before, I am not asking everyone to drop it all and move to farms and raise food, but rather hoping to open up and restore a different lifestyle, a set of beliefs and values, all rooted in the sacred traditions of family and community. In their words,
"In all settings, agrarian practices can stimulate hope for more joyful living, healthier families, and more contented, centered lives."
That is my goal and my dream that we can all have that, no matter where we live or who we are. I am trying to understand it all, it is a deep hole that will take a long time to come to the bottom of, but once you start, you just want to keep pursuing it. But it sure is a glorious pursuit, well worth it all, and that is why I posted that, that is really my goal for this blog in general, to pursue what I believe and to call others to do the same.
This really great! I love talking about stuff like this, oh the joys of thinking!
Your post size is perfect, I want a a lot of discussion on this. So keep on posting! Bring it on!"

March 11, 2008 10:14 PM

"Hey Julia,

Again I couldn't click on the comments link, so I finally asked Brett about it, and he showed me a way to get around it. So now I'm good.

Thanks for your answer, I learned some things I hadn't considered before. For example, you said:

"That supporting of local and family farms and food sources and the values behind Agrarianism is really what I am getting at here. Like I said before, I am not asking everyone to drop it all and move to farms and raise food, but rather hoping to open up and restore a different lifestyle, a set of beliefs and values, all rooted in the sacred traditions of family and community."

Using this definition, I, even I, could call myself an agrarian! And yet I don't think anyone would consider me as such. I might support the idea, but my life is just so far removed from making it happen! I love the IDEA of supporting family farms, but my actions speak louder than words. I'm not willing to sacrifice in some other area in order to be able to afford that kind of food. If money was not an issue, I'd be far more inclined to do all my shopping at Whole Foods! Occasionally I do shop there, but it's the idea of sustained, consistent natural food choices that I quite literally can't buy into. It's sad that it really comes down to money. I mean, who wouldn't want to eat (and feed their children) the healthiest, most nutritious food available?

So much of what's been done to us in the last 70 years or so is a great big experiment. Everybody on the planet ate organic before then! There was no such thing as genetically modified food, grain-fed beef, milk from hormone- and antibiotic-injected cows. I certainly wouldn't have been eating delicious blueberries from Chile in January (which I did, by the way).

So I do love and am attached to my unnatural way of life, but am fully aware of the unnaturalness of it!

I also realize I'm totally in over my head trying to discuss a topic about which I know so little! You should invite all your family and friends to post comments, we could get a real round-table discussion going!"

March 13, 2008 6:02 PM

Jules said...

"Well! This is all very fascinating. Frankly I don't know what to say now.

I mean as far as I can tell, you understand it all perfectly well. So that is not even an issue. :)

You said "So much of what's been done to us in the last 70 years or so is a great big experiment."
I TOTALLY agree with you. That is a perfect way of saying it. But just as in any other experiment there are going to be the people who buy in to it, and the people who don't. I am not going to be a person who buys into, and that is why i believe in Agrarianism because it is for all those who won't. I guess once you know about it, it is just a matter of deciding what part you are going to play in it.

In terms of money, that is probably the number one thing that keeps people from buying locally and naturally. But the way I look at it, is that you are going to spend your money on something, so you might as well spend it on important things, such as your sustenance and nourishment. Not only is it bettering your body, but it is putting your money in the hands of families and local farmers who are trying to support their families and the local economy. Instead of putting it in the pockets of the big corporations, who are only out for money and not the betterment of the people, hence: GMO, antibiotics and hormones, and all that other nasty stuff they do for mass production.

See I think it is sooooo much bigger than we think. These corps. are tinkering with nature as if they were God, taking the natural structure of creation and turning it into a big experiment, or investment, it is so wrong what they are doing. So that is why something like Agrarianism, (or Crunchy Conservatism, they are all the same idea) is so important right now, we must tun things around, (there are already problems with bees disappearing and many other problems.) I am not trying to be a doomsday enviromentalist, but I do recognize a lot of problems as a cause of the horrible state of our food production and consumption, and I think that now we may need to compromise a little comfort here and there, for the betterment of the future.
We can't go on living the consumeristic way that we do, it won't last forever, it will end, and when it does those who put their life in it's hands and bought into it all, will really suffer. Agrarianism (with it's values of tradition and community) recognizes that and is trying to call people to be different, so that we will be able to last and not fall when consumerism and materialism falls. I really think that it goes beyond just our tables and homes, I think it is a choice that would effect everyone, so that is why I feel so passionately about this, that it is so important. We need to turn the culture around and it has got to start with every individual. As Gahndi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." That is really what it all comes down to I think.

Well I am sorry that the link is not working, is it the one at the bottom of the post that says "such-and-such comments." That has been working fine for me, but maybe I'll go look to the settings and try and fix it.
Yes I will ask the rest of the family to join in, (most of them don't even read my blog :) but I will ask them. I agree we can have a pretty good discussion going here.:)
Well thanks for all your input and hopefully I am not coming across too harsh, it's just that this is important to me... so that is why I'm here. "
~Jules

"You're not sounding harsh in the least. I'm enjoying the discussion. And I can't believe your family doesn't read your blog! They oughta.

The problem with the comment link is on our end, not yours. It has something to do with pop-ups, according to Brett, but he showed me a trick to get around it.

Julia, I think we really are in agreement about much of this. I have realized more and more that the way I actually live is not always in accordance with what I believe. The whole "experiment" idea is actually quite frightening to me, but even that has not been enough to motivate me to change my life in any meaningful way. Even though I'm concerned about what's being done to us, I can't muster up enough concern to stop eating fast food or junk food, other than for weight loss purposes. I know that must sound amazing to someone with your ideals, that the way I look is a far greater motivating factor for me, than is my and my family's health. I have no explanation for this. It just is.

I look forward to more of your thought-provoking posts!"